Independent Timeline

Independent Timeline
0

#1

Hi Folks, Looked around for a feedback forum and didn’t see anything that’s a good fit. Just wanted to make a suggestion regarding the timeline. I think it would be better if the timeline were independent and could be made private by itself without effecting certificate visibility.

  1. The time line for those who might be capable of finishing things quickly can work against them as it looks like they didn’t really spend much time on the course.

  2. It seems to be buggy… I know my timeline definitely doesn’t reflect the time I’ve spent taking and or reviewing the course or its sections. I have entire days that are simply missing. Days that I’ve definitely been here reviewing prior lessons and white boarding the code as opposed to re-running it in the browser. At this point and of my own choice I’ve taken the Responsive Web Design Certification virtually twice… And that certainly won’t be reflected on the timeline.

  3. If anyone such as myself doesn’t move immediately onto the projects it then looks like you just dropped off. When in-fact (as with myself) those will get completed in maybe two weeks after my review and after my testing for another course at another location from another center all together…

Basically I noticed that my timeline looks as though I popped in for a mere few weeks recklessly blasted through the course and then ditched it. lol

As someone who’s currently in a hiring position, I would be reluctant to hire someone who’s timeline looks like mine, yet knowing what I know of my own skill set and knowledge, I know that would be a big mistake to make such conclusions, and that a very valuable candidate (possibly even over qualified candidates) could find themselves sidelined cause of something as simple as the timeline.

You have other methods already attached to guarding the certificate income… Just cut the timeline free of that… leave the others in place. You might consider doing the same with the donation entry as well. That sorta pushes a little too close to “donation shaming”… That left a slightly bad taste in my mouth when I noticed it. I certainly intend to donate, but intend to do it after I finish at least one course and get a certification. At that point I will be able to asses the program in its entirety, how it performed, and well the information was presented collectively and then I can assign a value to that process in its completed form. That would be about the same time ill be looking for a place to send or post a testimonial.

Maybe my methods of self education are different than others, but I tend to be very methodical, and very thorough…review, review, review. Revisit the basics over and over again. When you revisit the basics after attaining a higher skill level you are then able to see them from a new perspective. With this new perspective one is often able to attain a much better and more complete understanding of those basics and the concepts that surround them, you catch things you missed. An understanding that on the first pass may have been loosely grasped, or not fully understood and/or possibly even completely misunderstood.

Anyways just some thoughts on the timeline. I’m not sure it’s in students best interests. Especially more advanced students. It can have a tendency to make one look like an in-consistant slacker. :confused:

I’m not sure its in freecodecamps best interest either, for example if someone asked me about your courses I would certainly make mention of this to them, it would sound something like this: "The course material and the overall community and experience is GREAT!!! The education you can obtains is definitely based on solid fundamentals, BUT if your looking for a certification you can show possible employers be aware that’s it best for you to find someway of fluffing your timeline somehow so as to make it appear that you’ve been working consistently every day for 90 days at least, if not 6 to 9 months. You need to make it look like you spent at least an hour a day (300 hour course) cause if your available time and current skill set allow you do full days of 10 or 12 hours and finish rapidly, that can make you look pretty bad.

Outside of that, great work, and what an awesome platform you’ve created here.

Warm Regards
Anthony…


#2

that’s not the timeline that matters. The github/gitlab one does.


#3

Upon taking a second look I realize I might possibly be wrong about the donation section hiding certificates if its set private… When you look at the page it gets a touch wonky at the bottom and isn’t “exactly” clear if Your certifications will be disabled applies to the item above it or below it.


#4

Not everybody is using git hub… The first course doesn’t even call for it. Makes no mention of it at all really…Students are directed to submit their projects via codepen, Git hub plays no roll in the course.


#5

Your post specifically came from the perspective of job hunting. Nobody will look at your FCC timeline. The certificates, maybe. Much more important is what you built without scaffolding. Did you create a website for a local business with e-commerce? Stand up a wordpress site for a blogger? Create a React SPA that lets people access synopses of all the Star Trek shows based on which characters are in them? Did you contribute to open-source projects? That’s the timeline you need to be concerned with. If the person in charge of hiring is technical, they may well peruse any open-source repositories to see whether you write clean, well-documented code.


#6

If you link to your certificates your timeline must be displayed. Or you cannot link to your certs.

This is a rudimentary beginners course. No new students are going to come away from this particular course with any of the things you’ve listed here. And they will have no experience with git hub either…

I appreciate the input but my concerns still remain. I’ve been running this studio for 20 years. When I look to hire I know exactly what I’m gonna look for. And I know that as an employer the timeline could easily reflect poorly on some of the best candidates. And I would have no way of knowing that unless I get them in the office and get to talking to them.


#7

You seem very set in your opinions. I highly recommend you look to in the “Getting a Developer Job.” thread to see what people other than myself say. I’m out.


#8

I appreciate your input vipertron. but I don’t think you understand my position here at the company and my concerns, you seem to be applying an “advanced” template of expectation on a rudimentary basics course.

Have you looked at the new courses? Nobody exiting the Responsive Web Design course is going to exit that course with any of the projects or experience or knowledge your speaking of. It seems your not looking at this from a hiring perspective… One cannot expect such things from a course that doesn’t teach the student such thing.

Anyways this is post of suggestions, for freecodecamp staff from someone who does indeed do the hiring. I’m not looking for developer jobs, I’m on the other end, looking for developers. And I’m simply stating how a person such as myself who’s making such decisions would view the fcc timeline if I indeed chose to look at it and consider it in my decision making. . Which is why I’m here, to review the courses. An applicant provided fcc as a source of their education on their job application. So here I am working through the courses myself so I can asses what value to attribute to such entries on a job app when I receive it. So yes, indeed my opinion on this is pretty well set. Maybe it will change as I complete the rest of the courses. Suppose we’ll see.

Thanks for your input.


#9

That is kind of interesting, since you have perspective on both sides. You also sort of are arguing both side. You’re saying that someone in hiring position might hold their timeline against them, yet you also show that it really just take a little understanding and sympathetic thinking to have an idea why a person can have an erratic timeline without being a slacker.

Its not often we get to ask someone in hiring position questions. In a scenario like this, how much credit do you give the applicants? Does an erratic timeline automatically tank a person’s prospect even though you, having seen the other side, know that it may not accurately reflect a person’s work ethic? How much sympathetic thinking do hiring professionals do on behalf of candidates?

Obviously timeline is a very small part of an candidate’s evaluation, how strongly would an assumption base off of that impact a candidate’s qualification? Is it important enough to disqualify the person from an interview if he or she is otherwise well qualified?


#10

Yeah, okay. I’m calling BS. You use “one” to sound smart, but you can’t differentiate between “your” and “you’re”. You claim you’re hiring for a “studio you’ve been running for 20 years,” and yet you would base your decision on how frequently a green spot appears on a timeline for a course that suggests you wander off and use multiple resources? You seem to not understand the donation thing at all - it isn’t required in the slightest, yet you seem to have been fixated on it in terms of claiming certificates. You’re supposedly at an advanced level of ability, but you’ve spent DAYS whiteboarding code? For what? None of the challenge waypoints should take that long for an experienced programmer. The certifications are (mostly) not based on those waypoints, but on self-directed projects, where passing the tests is far less useful than the finished product (to which a link is provided from the camper’s profile - if indeed I am somehow mistaken and you’re not putting on airs, and are indeed looking to hire a developer, that’s the section to which I would direct your attention. You are correct: the curriculum alone is but a starting point, but some campers—myself among them—really take to heart the idea of putting in their best efforts for those projects in web development, applying lessons from blog posts, other tutorials, advice from others and integrating them into a product that not only passes the tests, but would work in the real world).

Data for my skepticism that you know what you claim:

At this point and of my own choice I’ve taken the Responsive Web Design Certification virtually twice…

You say the reason you are “reviewing FCC” is:

I’m not looking for developer jobs, I’m on the other end, looking for developers. And I’m simply stating how a person such as myself who’s making such decisions would view the fcc timeline if I indeed chose to look at it and consider it in my decision making. . Which is why I’m here, to review the courses. An applicant provided fcc as a source of their education on their job application. So here I am working through the courses myself so I can asses what value to attribute to such entries on a job app when I receive it. So yes, indeed my opinion on this is pretty well set. Maybe it will change as I complete the rest of the courses. Suppose we’ll see.

but, you also said:

If anyone such as myself doesn’t move immediately onto the projects it then looks like you just dropped off. When in-fact (as with myself) those will get completed in maybe two weeks after my review and after my testing for another course at another location from another center all together…

And just in case you think I’m blowing things out of proportion, there is this tome that sounds admirable in a student and arrogant in an experienced programmer:

Maybe my methods of self education are different than others, but I tend to be very methodical, and very thorough…review, review, review. Revisit the basics over and over again. When you revisit the basics after attaining a higher skill level you are then able to see them from a new perspective. With this new perspective one is often able to attain a much better and more complete understanding of those basics and the concepts that surround them, you catch things you missed. An understanding that on the first pass may have been loosely grasped, or not fully understood and/or possibly even completely misunderstood.

So, I doubt everything you said. On the base logic of it, why would someone reviewing the curriculum to weigh its merits do more than merely peruse the Table of Contents and a few lessons? And if they had technical knowledge, why wouldn’t they “view source” on the projects, since you claim that you are talking about an applicant who has only completed the Responsive Web Design section?


#11

Let’s just put out there that what employers look for/value is going to be completely subjective.

That being said, I’m with @vipatron on this one. I think the majority of employers are going to look the deepest at the overall body of work you’re presenting rather than your places of education. Otherwise, let’s say someone lists a degree from an online school, does that mean you’re going to pay tuition to fully review the course material if you’re considering hiring them? FCC is free, which is great if you want to get a better idea of it, but that’s not going to be the case every time.

If I was hiring, I’d expect someone with FCC listed on their resume to also have other learning resources listed. Plus I’d expect them to have projects beyond the scope of FCC’s projects. Now do timelines play a part in that? Perhaps, but I also get that life happens, sometimes it’ll take one person longer to complete an overall course than someone else. So you base your decisions on their work and their interview/s. That’s where you’re going to suss out the most info on them as a potential hire.

If while interviewing them I see a overall leaning towards slacking off, THAT’S my red flag.


#12

Indeed i do, heh.

Indeed I am and some ways, good eye. :slight_smile:

Yes and while its not at all a show stopper when one has numerous applications in front of them for example lets take a small number of 45, your first pass through them is often a quick cut and slash pass in attempt to reduce it to lets say 5 or 6. And depending on who’s reviewing it and what mood they are in that day, the timeline could be an element that tosses them into the “probably not” pile unless they have other items that stand out immediately (ideally one most likely would)… And bear in mind I run a small studio and apps are reviewed by a human as opposed to a large corp. that will automate the process in order to cut the stack down to a manageable number.

How much sympathy one gives would and can vary greatly from one comp[any to the next and one person to the next. There’s not really an answer I could give that would reflect any sort of consistency within in the industry as a whole. I know guys who would hire people I would fire. and I know folks I would hire instantly but others would not. And honestly for me im never looking for coding geniuses, im looking for adequate, and willing to learn, individuals with a good work ethic, consistent performance, and a matching moral compass. For example Vipertron would be kicked outta this office pretty rapidly just based on his attitude regardless of what skill he might posess. lol

And absolutely not, at least not here, the timeline wouldn’t prevent me from hiring someone if they have strong portfolio and other credentials and experience to present as well.

The timeline I would consider when I had lets say a 17 year old kid apply without experience, education, or a strong portfolio but had completed fcc’s 1st course.(this reflects the individual that come to my office)… The course is very good, so I indeed would consider the applicant if they had all the other traits, but then, (assuming I’ve still not spoken or interviewed them) If I noticed the timeline I certainly would be concerned if it shows the course completed sporadically and rapidly over 2 or 3 weeks. It in a way that could “possibly” be reflective of attendance, work ethic, and consistent performance. But the next employer may not consider such things at all (if they even notice it).


#13

No reasonable person could disagree with your first scentence… :slight_smile:


#14

Vipatron you “call” what ever you need to make yourself feel comfortable. That is of no consequence to me. That’s about as far as I got, didn’t read the rest of your post. My apologies for that. But i’m confident I’m not missing anything important and it’s likely to be of little value to me. You have a poor and combative attitude and i’m completely uninterested in continuing the conversation or engaging with you.

But enjoy your afternoon. And good luck in the future.


#15

Just to point an extra thing… the timeline is bugged, don’t take it seriously right now

Look at their projects, it is a better thing. Give them something to do.

And seriously, people don’t even have to do the challenges to do the projects, the timeline itself is totally useless in evaluating someone…

I would look at what they have built. FreeCodeCamp itself is not a guarantee of quality. People can just copy and paste the answers, for example. The projects and what someone can actually build are a different thing.


#16

Agreed 100%… This is precisely why i made the suggestion of making its visibility independent of the certs visibility. Those who have a consistent timeline can show it, those who do not can “not” show it… Seems fair to me. heh


#17

This post has taken a rather interesting turn… And while this may be a touch off topic, because of “that turn” it certainly has become relevant.

What I would say to anyone reading is that first and foremost to many employers is “fit”, especially in smaller operations… Does the person fit into the team, and do they play well with others?. And often that can take precedence over skill.

Always keep your attitude and ego in check, especially in smaller studios with close knit teams. One toxic and abrasive individual can destroy the efficiency and production of the entire team. These individuals can be cancer to your success. If you join a team with such and individual or allow such individuals in the door to join your team then you might as well not bother. Because you will have then made reaching your own goals so much more difficult…


#18

I admit I still don’t see your point on the importance of the timeline for hiring purposes

If you think it is important you can create an issue on the github repository, or even do that change yourself


#19

That’s interesting, heh whether you realize it or not you restated my point of your own volition which is why I agree 100% .

I’m sorry Iealeen, my apologies but I don’t understand your reply, you’re suggesting that I personally modify freecode camps websight through git hub?

Honestly folks, this has been probably one of the more bazaar interactions I’ve had in a very long time and is not at all leading to anything positive for anyone… Maybe its a generational gap or something. So anyways im gonna just let this be as is…

But it was interesting meeting you folks and certainly an interesting exchange. I think possibly I was mistaken in thinking these forums are populated by responding staff. My bad.

Enjoy the evening :slight_smile:


#20

Thanks for answering.

Always good to see some different perspective. I’m surprised that you would even consider a 17 year old without experience or portfolio, but I’m glad there are still people out the willing to go the extra mile to give some one like that a chance.

I see your point, and it is something probably can be done. Heck some kid might be able to put it on their resume even if they work on it. Free Code Camp is an open source project, and people can raise issues and create pull requests for changes they implement.