Will Bootstrap be dropped?

Will Bootstrap be dropped?
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Hi Yoder, I use vanilla SCSS with a super simple Gulp file.

IMO as a teacher and developer, sticking to the core language means that every hour of study is taking your much deeper into your learning path.

Core languages allow you to write clean, tight, reusable code that specifically addresses the project at hand, whereas Bootstrap it is a generic solution - resulting in code which is most often bloated and ugly, with extra markup and hundreds of lines of unused css / js - see @labiej - uncss.

Bootstrap tries to solve every problem in the world - bootstrap.min.css is currently 187 KB!! It’s like hiring a crane to move a stick. That’s insane, and site performance is paying the price.

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Checking it out now…

Regarding unused CSS, I recently read this (old) article by Addy Osmani. It was a real eye opener.

One example that I expect to be quite extreme is FontAwesome because most of the time you’ll use 5 or 6 icons and a few classes like fa and fa-2x. A quick search report 2565 matches for the pattern .fa* in the minified fontawesome file i.e. 2565 selectors in the CSS file. ( See footnote #1 below for how I did this )

The cheat sheet lists “only” 786 icons (search for &# at http://fontawesome.io/cheatsheet/ and see how many are listed). So there are A LOT of extra selectors you’ll likely not even consider using. For example using icons as bullets for your unordered lists as demonstrated at http://fontawesome.io/examples/

Altogether this will lead to a large relative improvement.

Notes

  1. I ran the command cat font-awesome.min.css | grep -o .fa* | wc -l which gave this number. I’m not certain there aren’t selectors that use more than one class but a quick scan of the files didn’t show such a case.

Its always good to look at frameworks like bootstrap and foundation .

I applied for a job a few months ago, and they asked me to do a test project using foundation framework. I had to give myself a crash course in foundation and knowledge of bootstrap helped me a lot.

I’ve gone through all the projects and am currently on the 4th d3 graph. I’ve never used bootstrap. Like others have said, core css fundamentals, particularly flexbox, will fulfill all of your formatting needs. Plus imo, bootstrap looks cheesy and, at this point, maybe a little dated.

Every bootstrap website ever

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I used to rely on bootstrap and I did not know how basic CSS works. I decided to completely stop using bootstrap, and now I can do the same things I did with bootstrap. My suggestion is to not use bootstrap, because using CSS will give you more knowledge of what is going on and allow you to do more customization.

“Every bootstrap website ever!” - it’s even EASIER than that, why learn front end/gui at all? Just type Monster Template and BUY a site preFab’d and add the backend needed.

Your OP reminded me of why I stopped coding 16 years ago. It’s ALWAYS flavor of the month without compensation. Jump monkey, jump! Learn this monkey, learn this! It gets OLD really, really quick.

If we’re expected to learn new languages at this pace, companies should compensate accordingly. Upper 5, low 6 figures isn’t gonna cut it, if languages change every 6mos-year but the pay/wage-scale is static.

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So much to learn, so little time. Gotta pick and choose carefully which new techs to invest yourself into. But then again, I jsut started all of this in August, so what do I know? :grin:

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You bring up a great point: which new tech should we really be investing our time/money in? The trash heap of dead languages is festering, and bootstrap will soon be added.

On a positive note, all the BS sites will need to be ported to the new flavor of the week.

Glad you mentioned this, because i fell now that after learning a lot about html, css, scss, bootstrap, etc; Once you get to know a technology something new comes into play and thats one of the reasons i’m planning to switch to android dev were you can learn one IDE (Android Studio) and one language (Java).

I dont want to throw away all the time/effort i put into learning thos technologies but its a lot…

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omg yes. I recognize those stock photos from the project feedback forum…

It’s why I stopped coding all those years ago. I’m all for progress, but when the cheese is kept moving and no reward in sight, why learn it?

Simple-
Go to HS and get diploma = make x dollars
Go to college/university and get AA degree = make x MORE dollars
Go to college/university and get BA/BS degree = make x MORE MORE dollars
Go to college/university and get Masters = make x MORE MORE MORE dollars
Go to college/university and get PhD = make x MORE MORE MORE MORE dollars

it compounds; the more education through traditional university/college, the more you make. This is NOT true when programming. Languages change every 6mos-year, but your pay does not. In fact, it most likely will stay flat-lined forever (AFI), unless you go into biz for yourself or job hop or freelance/contract or get out of programming.

@Yoder, feel free to message me if you want to give Gulp a try. It can seem daunting, but a basic setup is pretty easy to get going.

Bootstrap can be a handy resource, but in my opinion, if you don’t know css well and you start relying on Bootstrap, you will never truly “get” css, you are likely to remain stuck an whatever your current ability level is until you start doing it yourself. Bootstrap can be a pretty helpful learning resource if you study its source code. If you complete an fcc challenge using Bootstrap, try redoing it without Bootstrap and see what you learn.

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At what point should I start using production tools like Gulp?

I’m spending this week getting a basic understanding of the breadth of CSS. I’ve finished using the position rules on my homebrew project. I’ll try Columns and Flexbox this weekend. Next week for Transforms, Transitions. Then on to JavaScript. I do FCC projects when I need to stop learning and practice for a while. So, essentially, I have a two track path: one homebrew, one FCC. When is it worth switching the homebrew to Gulp?

@Yoder, so what you’re really aiming for is to start using SCSS sooner, and Gulp is going to ‘compiling’ it for you. I can help you setup a basic config file so it all happens automatically in the background.

Learn it.

If you are starting it helps you going alot faster than coding everything by hand. This in turn leads to increased motivation and less frustration. And finally after you get a good handle on it you can start to realize some limitations leading you to want to learn the fundamentals.

Reading this thread will take longer than completing all the Bootstrap challenges :yum:

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Definitely learn bootstrap if you started it. Although having a firm grip in CSS is much much better than mostly relying on frameworks. These frameworks like bootstrap or foundation will be super easy to understand once you know your vanilla.
After css learn sass/scss or postcss. They will open a whole new world of freedom!

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